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xxlucyferxxOr anyone else who just happens to be a history buff. Although I don't think I have any others on my flist.
I really need some vampire mythology that Dr. Cornelius could feasibly have unearthed at some point during one of his magical escapades. I'm working on this section in Sanguinis Vinculum where he's been going through some ancient books he has about vampires, incubi/succubi, etc. I won't explain the whole scene here, but I really want to be able to quote a relevant passage or two from these books.
Problem: my knowledge of vampire mythology is fantastic when it comes to the 19th century, but that's far too modern for a Narnian setting. I need something that sounds as if it could have been written in a medieval book of the occult, or something along those lines. I tried to write my own passage, but I really don't know enough medieval literature to pull off that sort of thing. So basically, if you can give me a positive answer to one of the following three questions, I will love you forever:
a) Do you have access to any suitably ancient writings about the vampire, which I could use as a reference point and/or quote in my writing?
OR
b) Do you have any skill at all in writing in a way that might sound appropriate to the sort of literature PC-era Narnians/Telmarines might have had access to, and would you be at all willing to sacrifice a bit of time to help me construct something that won't sound completely embarrassing?
OR
c) Do you know a person who COULD help me with either of the above, and could you direct me to them?
I really need some vampire mythology that Dr. Cornelius could feasibly have unearthed at some point during one of his magical escapades. I'm working on this section in Sanguinis Vinculum where he's been going through some ancient books he has about vampires, incubi/succubi, etc. I won't explain the whole scene here, but I really want to be able to quote a relevant passage or two from these books.
Problem: my knowledge of vampire mythology is fantastic when it comes to the 19th century, but that's far too modern for a Narnian setting. I need something that sounds as if it could have been written in a medieval book of the occult, or something along those lines. I tried to write my own passage, but I really don't know enough medieval literature to pull off that sort of thing. So basically, if you can give me a positive answer to one of the following three questions, I will love you forever:
a) Do you have access to any suitably ancient writings about the vampire, which I could use as a reference point and/or quote in my writing?
OR
b) Do you have any skill at all in writing in a way that might sound appropriate to the sort of literature PC-era Narnians/Telmarines might have had access to, and would you be at all willing to sacrifice a bit of time to help me construct something that won't sound completely embarrassing?
OR
c) Do you know a person who COULD help me with either of the above, and could you direct me to them?
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 07:09 am (UTC)As far as context goes, your Caspian-verse doesn't feel medieval to me... more like sixteenth century, perhaps? And your narrative tone is good old Gothic. So for Dr Cornelius to dig up old records, all you need is something that feels older than the narrative present.
Your gothic reading has been all 19th century, hasn't it? You might lay hands on 'The Castle of Otranto' by Horace Walpole, 1764. Can't remember if it has vampires in it, but it's apparently the first gothic novel. Has a giant helmet falling out of the sky, I remember that much. The narrative style is really weird... has none of the lovely depth and control that you find in high gothic. You could model your hypothetical old myths on that narrative style.
On the other hand, you have PEVENSIES. Have any of them read 19th c. vampire lit?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 07:22 am (UTC)Your other option is, rather than a myth, a royal or other record of a previous vampire outbreak. You wouldn't even need to write it out completely- just a few notes from the record which you can have Cornelius quote, and then summarise the rest of the event.
On the other hand, you could go earlier and use Greek mythology, as outlined by our friend Wikipedia again (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire#Ancient_beliefs). It might be easier to find primary sources for Greek stuff online?
As for question b), I probably couldn't write it myself- no time to reread Otranto, and it's been far too long since I wrote Gothic. I could beta/brainstorm with and/or for you, but nothing in depth until friday, far too much uni stuff going on at the moment.
Similarly, c) is a bit of a dead end, sorry, can't think of anyone. :(
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 07:31 am (UTC)I really like the royal record idea...I'm pretty sure there was another royal vampire crisis a while back, possibly during Caspian II's reign...
I'll look into the Greek mythology, as well. I hadn't thought of that one either.
And good luck with the uni stuff!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 08:15 am (UTC)Royal record- you could have fun with that if it's written by someone who thinks the peasants are all a bunch of stupid gullible twits, and of COURSE these things aren't true. You'd only get sketchy details from such a source, and it would be just enough for Dr Cornelius to tell there's something really important going on, but few hard details.
On the other hand, you could go for something like Rev Robert Kirk's Secret Commonwealth of Elves, Fauns and Fairies (http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/sce/): ie, a text written by a well educated person, who lives in a part of the country where the existence of (in this case) Vampires is just taken as fact. Said person's work might be regarded as ridiculous by mainstream Telmarine society (and perhaps, like Kirk's, languish in obscurity for years on end), and good ole Dr Cornelius might dig it out.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 08:25 am (UTC)Actually, the former option could tie in perfectly with this mission the Doc keeps on insisting he needs to gallivant off on...ooh, I think I just got a thread of inspiration.
*excited*
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 08:30 am (UTC)Guh. *I* keep getting inspirations that want to have me chasing off in all sorts of directions... I realised I need to write in a) Drinian b) Eustace c) Peter and d) Digory for the VOTD cycle (although thankfully the final two don't come in until the very end), AND the backstory keeps esploding on me so that if I'm not careful I'll be writing PC-as-remembered-on-VOTD. And my brain keeps careering off on ideas like 'what are the basic understandings about sexuality in Telmarine Narnia' and 'how did Golden Age Narnia understand sexuality' and 'wtf is up with Caspian, freakin' moron'. And I just invented a Telmarine empire, a war with Calormen, and pirates.
And somewhere in there I have to figure out what to do with Caspian and Edmund. Poor darlings, they spent two weeks fighting and screwing, and now they're on a boat where they CAN'T fight and it is inadvisable to bicker publically. What are they supposed to DO? They're not even friends...
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 07:28 am (UTC)As far as I know, the term surfaced in the 18th century, and the 19th century saw a huge explosion of vampire fear, but it seems to go a long way further back in different cultures and under different names. Even Aborigines had their own vampire-type legends, or so I've been told by a couple of websites I've been browsing.
That...is a very good idea. I hadn't thought of the Pevensies having had access to more modern literature. I'm trying to imagine which one of them would have sat around reading gothic and occult literature in their spare time. Lucy's out, as is Peter...I'm inclined to think that if any of them, Edmund might be the most well-read.
Almost exclusively 19th century, yes...I've read a few of the pioneering gothic novels as well, all late 18th century, but I've never read Otranto. Come to think of it, I'm going to have to track down a copy...I DO have the next best thing, which is Udolpho, but that was published in 1794 or something.
Thank you for coming to my aid! I've gotten myself all stressed out about this, I fear...I'm off to obsessively browse wikipedia and fish out my Radcliffe novels, I think. You've given me quite some food for thought.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 08:04 am (UTC)Yes, there are definitely earlier myths which developed into vampires, but what kind of vampire is your vampire? If she's a proper gothic vampire, fragments of earlier mythology might not do you much good in that respect.
What about Susan? She might enjoy racy gothic romances :P
Otranto is HILARIOUS. And short. As a novel, I think it's absolute rubbish, and hated having to study it. But come on, GIANT HELMETS FALLING FROM THE SKY! KILLING PEOPLE!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 08:18 am (UTC)I'll have to think on that...I always imagined Susan being a little more sensible - at that point in the series, at least (I have a bone to pick with Mr. Clive Staples about what he did to her). Although I possibly could persuade her to get interested in it...we'll see.
My vampire is a bit of a mish-mash of different mythologies...it's terribly frustrating, really. Suppose it goes to show I really do read too much of this stuff...I just can't stay put inside one vampire canon. She's mostly a Carmilla-type vampire, except that she isn't obliged to return to her coffin every night. Cause, well, that would screw up my plans. XD
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 08:23 am (UTC)Even sensible people read racy gothic novels sometimes. The most Sensible teacher I ever had- who spent years trying to wean me off fantasy- read two dollar gothics obsessively.
Hum, well, the only other advice I can add is- don't feed Dr Cornelius all the answers at once! Make his source(s) vague, or misled, in places, even if they're right about the really important facts. It's no fun researching anything if all the answers are there in front of you.
Another way to get out of writing the actual source is have it in another language, so that your story is actually Dr Cornelius summarising for Caspian.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 08:30 am (UTC)I think all the research I've had him do so far has been too straightforward and clear. I'm going to have to do some editing to make it a more difficult path for them all.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 08:34 am (UTC)Also, put some thought into who the authors of the sources are and what they're trying to say. Chances are, they're not trying to help Caspian X with his vampire problem...
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 08:53 am (UTC)You're right. Dammit, you're going to infect me with your backstory syndrome...I really need to figure out who these authors are. Most of them are the 'batshit crazy' types I think, but once I write in this report it'll be a lot of scepticism.
Oh dear! If I'm the sort who doesn't put enough thought into the finer details of stories, then you're the sort who puts far too much. You'll get yourself in a right pickle here, if you're not careful. :P Social understanding of sexuality is a really tricky one...most people I read seem to let themselves off the hook with 'ok, Narnians were completely hedonistic and Telmarines were completely prudish'. But that drives me up the wall...SURELY it was a bit more complicated than that.
If you find yourself getting too preoccupied with the events of PC, it might be better to write them as a sort of prequel-cycle rather than trying to tie them in as memories to VODT.
Pirates I can follow (Pug's close enough) but a Telmarine empire? That's got me curious. And how would Narnia avoid getting flattened by Calormen in a war? Unless said empire comes into play, they're much too small to take on Calormen.
Haha, I suppose that's what you get when you get when you have two emotionally illiterate Kings in the same bed together. They really aren't good at the whole 'relationship' part, are they?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 09:06 am (UTC)Which is nonsense. Of course. It all started with me thinking 'oh dear have I fallen pray to the Everyone Is Gay (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EveryoneIsGay) effect? ARE my characters gay? Edmund I can't tell, since he effectively opted out of puberty the first time around. Peter I've nailed down as functionally bi with a statistical preference for men, which was fine in the Golden Age (hey, fauns and satyrs don't care who you boink as long as you rule well. Animals don't care as long as you can reproduce. Which might be a problem as the kids get older and don't marry... hmmm...), but really really messes him around when he gets back to England.
Caspian, meanwhile, is incapable of forming meaningful relationships with women. Not too great at it with men, either. This might make him gay, or a moron. Except, after long reflection, Telmarines understand sexuality in terms of top/bottom, not gay/straight. This makes Caspian's hangup about teh buttsexs sooo much more interesting...
Mm, Telmarine empire. Which explains what some Telmarines are doing in Narnia in the first place- expansionism. Except it wasn't a very STRONG empire, and Telmar itself got overrun by Calormen due to overstretching itself with the conquering thing. So Caspian, by a strange stroke of luck, is possibly the last surviving scion of the Telmarine royal line.
Haven't yet decided why Telmarine Narnia didn't get flattened by Calormen. Possibly they were unwittingly protected by the legacy of That Rabbadash Incident? Also they have very closely tied themselves with Archenland.
Pirates come in because Drinian is a Telmar-Calormene pirate, I have decided, who heard that Narnia had, with the aid of Galma (I think?) launched a baby navy and was wobbling around learning to sail. Drinian took his pirate ship down there to prey on the baby navy and got the shit kicked out of him by griffins. Accordingly he swore loyalty to Caspian. (H/T to Bedlam who used similar plot devices in her Golden Age fics.)
This, happily, means that Caspian isn't setting off to the end of the world in a boat captained by a man who had until a few years ago been afraid of the sea.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 09:08 am (UTC)gah. I mean preference for womn. It's ME who has the statistical preference for men. Must not confuse self with character.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 09:56 am (UTC)I have a rather more eye-rolling angsty explanation for his behaviour. My Caspian didn't cope too well with his upbringing - he didn't have any parental figure (except for Cornelius, but that didn't really substitute) and Miraz was distant and occasionally quite abusive. That was all fairly normal, run-of-the-mill stuff in Telmarine Narnia, but for whatever reason it messed with Caspian's head a bit. As an adult he's needy and a bit emotionally immature, and that clashes with his sense of duty and his need to feel in control of situations. And because he's about as introspective as a lump of granite, he has no idea about any of this.
Oh, so is that what you needed 'catamite' for? That could get very interesting...poor dear Caspian. He's such an ass.
Hmm, the Telmar thing makes sense, actually. Expansion is a far better reason than just 'ooh, we don't like Telmar, let's go find some other place'. Archenland would be virtually useless as an ally against Calormen...if I remember correctly, they're smaller than Narnia. Anyway, both countries together are dwarfed in comparison to the Calormen empire. They'd have to out-maneuver them politically...or yes, the Rabadash legacy could be very helpful to them.
For myself, I always imagined Drinian coming from Galma, or some other island whose inhabitants didn't fall prey to Telmarine superstition about the sea. I like your pirate idea, though. That would make an intriguing story...I see why it'd give you trouble though. It's an awful lot of backstory to fit into your cycle.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 10:13 am (UTC)Yep, that's what I needed Catamite for. Cornelius gets to give Caspian a pointed lecture about not puppy-dogging at Peter's heels, because the Telmarine lords will not be pleased if their king is this Narnian upstart's catamite. And then Susan is going to forcibly dance Caspian around the ballroom and threaten to string him up by his heels and castrate him if he doesn't leave Peter alone. And then they all leave and Caspian's back to square one.
Caspian *is* such an ass. Also a bit of an arse. And he likes BEING the arse. It's all rather complicated.
I'm thinking the Narnian Telmarines may actually have conquered Archenland. Which is important, because they control the mountain pass. And also there are priceless silver deposits in the Archen mountains, which Telmarine Narnia needs to support its economy in the absence of sea trade. See also mountain passes and desert routes.
Oh, and they DIDN'T find Narnia bereft of humans. That's received mythology Dr Cornelius picked up from his dwarfish roots. There were humans in Narnia when the Telmarines arrived- and naturally they were absorbed into the Telmarine population. Or the Telmarines were absorbed into the Narnian population, depending on how you look at it. Working example here is the Norman Conquest of England. So Caspian speaks something which can best be termed Telmonarnian. For convenience, we will inhibit language development in order that Telmonarnian be intelligible to speakers of Old Narnian, which is not actually the language spoken in the Golden Age, but the language spoken by 'Old Narnians'. The language of the Golden Age, which Dr Cornelius has termed Old High Narnian, is not quite intelligible to speakers of Old Narnian but is relatively easy to learn. Caspian must've learnt it, since he read Susan's treaty. This is actually quite a clever political move, as far as establishing himself in Narnian good books goes.
DRINIAN, on the other hand, speaks CalormoTelmarine as his mother tongue.
The Pevensies understand all this because of Magic. Also Old Narnian is intelligible to speakers of Old High Narnian but not the other way around. Anyway, it is Aslan's Will that the Pevensies speak any language necessary for them.
Oh, and the Lone Islands speaks something close to Telmonarnian. Let's call it Narnimarine. It's the common tongue of the island nations, not exactly parrallel to Telmonarnian, because Telmarine Narnia has been isolated due to hydrophobia. But mutually intelligible.
YEAH I PUT WAY TOO MUCH THOUGHT INTO THESE THINGS.
In other news, I have written a title on my paper for monday. That's all. Time to panic now.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 10:28 am (UTC)Did you know your LJ eats the edge of the comment box
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 10:37 am (UTC)Wow...well, I personally find the language issue absolutely fascinating, but it's nearly impossible to sustain without doing a Tolkien and writing whole books about the grammar of invented languages that only obsessive hardcore scholar-fans are going to read. And in fanfic, it doesn't work. I keep wanting to fit some form of French into my stories, because it's the only other language I speak with any degree of competency, but sadly I can't make it fit into the Narnian universe in any way, shape or form. I spent hours looking up all the different islands and far-flung corners. It doesn't work.
Really? Are you sure? Crap...well, I am NOT fixing the goddamn layout again. CCS coding is HARD. Does it always do that, or is it just because this thread is getting so long?
Eep! That's what you get for filling your brian with Narnian politics and teh buttsecks. Good luck getting it finished... :/
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 01:22 pm (UTC)You can code? *envies*
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-07 12:21 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-07 01:03 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-07 01:05 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-07 01:05 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-07 01:07 am (UTC)PS. This conversation has now completely disappeared. XD
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-07 01:09 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 11:49 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 11:55 am (UTC)I had a chapter finished as well, but after that big long convo with inept I'm now busy editing a big block of it. Would it be ok if I mail it to you soon, possibly later on tonight or, if I go to bed at a vaguely godly hour, tomorrow? There's no rush, just letting you know.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 11:58 am (UTC)Today I have the most time to work on it but I can do it tomorrow evening. Write down something really detailed that you want in that section and I can do it.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-06 04:54 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-07 01:05 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-09-08 08:51 pm (UTC)